Part 1: Expectations for 2 Under 2 with Kat Eddy

Kat: 00:00:45

I am a white girl that has a kombucha business and likes making sourdough. Why did you have to, like...

Emily: 00:00:50

Red flag! Red flag!

Kat: 00:00:54

No, come on. I mean, like, I also voted for Bernie...

Emily: 00:00:59

Hello, and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On this show, we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of things that are a lot. Social media, parenthood, and more.

When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy. That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings, and keeping it real about how we feel.

We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host, Emily Hest Lynch. I'm here with Kat Eddy, the owner of Katboocha and a mom of one, soon to be two. Welcome to the show, Kat.

Kat: 00:01:33

Thanks for having me.

Emily: 00:01:34

I'm really excited to chat with you tonight about what you're expecting, about the whole world you're walking into with two under two. How are you feeling?

Kat: 00:01:42

I think I'm in, like, that phase beforehand where it all seems great, and I have no idea really what I'm in for. But, you know, in theory, it's, it's...yeah, it's good.

Emily: 00:01:54

Even before my first, I had no idea what I was getting myself into, and I felt like, "oh, we're gonna have this nice little baby. We're gonna start a family." and you don't know what it'll actually feel like day to day.

Kat: 00:02:03

Mm, yeah, for sure. I think this time around, I have a little bit better sense of the sleeplessness that awaits me. Um, but I don't know.

I'm not terribly worried about it as. As much as I was before.

Emily: 00:02:18

I guess you've done it once, so.

Kat: 00:02:20

Right. Yeah. I kind of know that there's, like, a timeline to it.

Emily: 00:02:24

So how far along in the pregnancy are you now? And then how old is your daughter?

Kat: 00:02:28

Okay, so right now I'm almost 35 weeks, which to anybody who doesn't count their time in weeks means I'm about a month away from having this baby. And my, my daughter, she's about 19 months, which again, for anyone who doesn't count their life in months is just over a year and a half.

Emily: 00:02:50

And how's the pregnancy been overall this time around?

Kat: 00:02:53

Pretty chill. I was, I was really chill with my, my first daughter, Sylvie. She really was a wonderful baby. She's...inside and out and, and this baby, too.

I, I did get a little bit more sick in the first trimester this time around. Which was a surprise for me, but I took, like, vitamins and stuff. It worked out.

Emily: 00:03:16

Did you find out the sex for this one or...?

Kat: 00:03:18

I'm having another girl. So strong. Strong girl.

Emily: 00:03:22

And do you have names picked out already and everything?

Kat: 00:03:25

We have a couple of names we're between, but we haven't picked one yet.

Emily: 00:03:30

Did you know? For Sylvie.

Kat: 00:03:31

Going into it for Sylvie, we also were between two names.

And this, like, crazy thing happened where we felt like we had this sign towards the name Sylvie, which is basically the cliff notes version of it was we were in the Catskills and we were going to get breakfast one morning. We were between the names Sylvie and Willa, and we were going to get breakfast one morning.

So I was looking at breakfast places, and there is a coffee shop, breakfast place called Willa's in Catskill. And I said to my husband, I said, oh, my God, we have to go here, you know? And it was really cute. And we're waiting in line.

There's a bunch of people in line, and the person ahead of us gives their name for their coffee. And her name happens to be Sylvie.

Emily: 00:04:17

Wow.

Kat: 00:04:18

Like, the mo. I feel like the names are not that common. Willa or Sylvie.

Emily: 00:04:22

What are the odds of that, right?

Kat: 00:04:24

So we ended up talking to this woman. She was like an older French lady, which is...Sylvia's the French version of Sylvia.

So it's just the craziest occurrence that we went to this random town, went to this random place, and then we met Sylvie. So I felt like it was a huge sign that our baby was Sylvie.

Emily: 00:04:40

That's really cool. It'll be interesting to see what you land on with your second one.

Kat: 00:04:45

I know. I wish, like, there would be, like, a cool sign for that as well.

Emily: 00:04:48

We were debating in the hospital until the very last minute.

Kat: 00:04:51

We were.

Emily: 00:04:52

We're like, we need to pick a name and a middle name so we can be discharged. And we left without a middle name. And they're like, "you need to call us in 48 hours. Tell us the middle name."

Kat: 00:05:00

Okay. Like, not to put you on the spot, but any regrets? Like, do you feel like, oh, wow, I really wish I went with the other?

Emily: 00:05:05

We love his name! his middle name, we're like, "meh." Like, people don't really use middle names that much, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Kat: 00:05:10

But I don't even have a middle name.

Emily: 00:05:12

It's funny.

Kat: 00:05:13

My parents thought my name was, like, long enough. My sister has one, but I don't.

Emily: 00:05:17

That's so interesting.

Kat: 00:05:18

But I'm also the second child. Maybe they just, like, lost their gusto with it.

Emily: 00:05:21

I don't know. You seem to be doing just fine without a middle name.

Kat: 00:05:25

I survived. I survived.

Emily: 00:05:27

So what are you expecting will be really hard about having two under two?

Kat: 00:05:33

I don't know. Like, everything, I guess. Well, I mean, I'm really eager, I would say, to see how Sylvie blossoms once this new baby comes along.

I think she will be fairly jealous. I feel like that's going to be, like, pretty normal for any kid that's a solo kid. But I'm expecting. She's very resilient. Kids are very resilient.

I'm expecting her to, like, all of a sudden maybe start, like, really confidently going up and down the stairs by herself and, like, maybe even talking a lot more. Like, she says words at the moment, but she doesn't. She communicates, but it's not in English. I'm not sure what it is, but we're getting there.

And she's close. And I'm...I guess I'm eager to see how she...how things change for her once this new baby comes around.

Because, honestly, if she doesn't have, like, a big developmental leap with that kind of thing, it's going to be exhausting. But I think she will. She's getting really good at stairs, actually, just, just before coming here...we live in a house that's, like, three stories, so we carry her quite a lot, and especially downstairs. And she really. She did the one set of stairs, like, six times going up and down. So I was like, okay, you know, like, we're getting there.

Emily: 00:06:58

Go, Sylvie!

Kat: 00:06:59

She's so proud of herself, too. So cute. Hopefully we'll all make it through.

Like I said a little bit earlier, you know, it's nice that we've done it once before, so we kind of know somewhat of the timeline of things. Like, how long are we going to be sleepless? How long might I be breastfeeding for?

Like, how, you know, like, these little steps forward as little humans become independent people. I think that'll be, like, something that my husband and I will really, like, hold on to as far as just looking, not...not trying to wish away the early days, but also, like, kind of looking forward to the fact that, like... Because as you probably know, it gets tense with your partner. And I think a lot of that comes from just being, like, depleted on every level.

Emily: 00:07:50

Totally. Do you have a plan for, like, dividing up the labor between you and your partner and the two kids or how to handle the tensions, too, that come up?

Kat: 00:07:59

I guess I am. Definitely.

Not to, like, sound like a broken record here, but I feel like I am trying to lean on, like, the fact that, like, we've been here, we've done this, and it's not over even with just one child. Like, you know, like, we. We still get annoyed with each other, or we still, like, tensions can get high because stimulation gets high.

And so, like, figuring out in the moments that we have now, like, how we're dealing with that. But as far as, like, division of labor, everyone loves to ask a pregnant woman, are you gonna breastfeed?

And, you know, my answer to that is the same with, as it was with Sylvie, which is like, "yeah, I'd love to, you know, but we'll see how it goes." I'm expecting it'll go well.

I did with Sylvie, and I've heard with your second baby that it just comes right in.

I guess I do kind of have a slight expectation that my husband will take a little bit more of the lead with Sylvie, our older daughter, because he won't necessarily be, like, tethered to her in the same way that I will be with our new baby. I know he's fine with that.

Emily: 00:09:06

Do you have a plan if breastfeeding doesn't work out, for what you'll do or how you'll handle any of the emotions that come up?

Kat: 00:09:12

Yeah, we'll definitely do formula. We did formula a lot with Sylvie, too. She was a big eater. She still is a big eater. Even though we were breastfeeding.

We definitely did formula as well. And I don't know how, how much this, like, is relevant to, to the whole story, but, yeah, like, Sylvie, she did do formula for the first month, and we ended up not breastfeeding because I was so sick after she was born, I developed, like, really severe preeclampsia. I had to be hospitalized, like, after. Like, after coming home. We were in the hospital for days after she was born and then after coming home as well.

And then, like, kind of once my blood pressure got under control, I got, like, a virus. It was just like, it was just like, hit after hit. Yeah.

And then, of course, as you know, like, when you're after birth, you have, like, this crazy hormone drop. I mean, you're just, like, kind of a wreck, you know? And I had a C section. Even though I feel like that was, like, the least of my problems.

Like, healing up from being, like, cut open that way was, like, literally the least of my problems. So I was, like, pretty ready to be, like, "she's a formula baby, I'm fine with it." And my husband, he really did encourage me to do breastfeeding.

And at that point, like, you know, not to be too graphic, but, like, it wasn't...there wasn't anything there.

Emily: 00:10:29

Yeah, I can imagine.

Kat: 00:10:31

So because I had just kind of. I was so exhausted, I couldn't think about, like, pumping. I ended up, like, re-lactating. It was crazy.

Emily: 00:10:38

Wow.

Kat: 00:10:39

We. So we did, like, pumping for a little bit and then she just, like, latched one day. She's, she's such a chill baby.

She was just like, "yeah, I'm going to. I'll latch!" wild.

Emily: 00:10:47

I can't believe with all that medical stuff and then you were able to do it. Wow.

Kat: 00:10:51

I know it does seem like kind of a weird miracle, but, you know, all that to be said, I definitely was not, like, I was like a just enougher. And maybe for like a normal baby, like, she was hungry.

Emily: 00:11:02

So, like, there's so much social content from oversuppliers who are like, "watch me stash all my milk in the freezer." And it's like, "screw you, I don't want to see this!" It's so disheartening.

Kat: 00:11:11

It really is. And I'm just like, I'm just like, wow, I'm really impressed when I see that.

And I just, like, I feel like even now I have, like, this disillusionment of like, like I just said, like, oh, I've heard it's better on your second baby. Like, I'm like, I'm preparing. Like, I'm preparing, like, I got the breast milk storage bags. Like, we're going to be, like, rich in breast milk.

But I don't know if that's true or not.

Emily: 00:11:34

I only made it two months with breastfeeding and I was like, mostly exclusively pumping because he was really early and we had a lot of medical issues too. And I was like, I'm going to push through. I want to save the money. Like, formula is so expensive.

Kat: 00:11:45

Right.

Emily: 00:11:46

And then my husband was like, "if this is destroying your mental health, like, we shouldn't have. You keep doing this." Like, I kept skipping pumping sessions and getting clogs and I'd be so angry and cranky. And it was just brutal. work.

Kat: 00:11:59

It really is so much work. Yes, it's beautiful and magical and all that, but it's like, slightly...I don't want to, like, say that...It's like, it's slightly, like, dehumanizing too. Like, totally. Or like you've lost all sense of, like, self with it as well.

Emily: 00:12:18

I read, like, some horror and body horror and I couldn't read that anymore after pregnancy or breastfeeding, because it's almost like body horror with a tiny creature latching onto you in, like, a way that's sometimes painful at the beginning. All of that.

Kat: 00:12:30

Yeah. And you're just like. It feels a little sick, but it is, like, also. So I totally get how it is beautiful and magical, too.

Emily: 00:12:40

It's just so cool that our bodies can do this, but also, like, what the fuck?

Kat: 00:12:42

Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. I do. When I got pregnant again, I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to have to breastfeed again.

I'm kind of, like, looking forward to it, I guess. But again, I'm really trying not to, like, wish away the early days.

Emily: 00:13:00

But were the early days hard with Sylvie?

Kat: 00:13:04

No. Like, it didn't seem it until the days got to be the later days, and you're like, "oh, wow." Like.

Emily: 00:13:11

And how much later is the later days? So much better.

Kat: 00:13:14

Like, two months is great. Four months is great. Six months is great. And then, like, a year onward is like, "whoa!" I don't know.

Emily: 00:13:22

Do you feel we're entering that era? Because he's one now?

Kat: 00:13:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily: 00:13:26

Around, like, 10 months. I was like, "okay, this is starting to get a lot more fun."

Kat: 00:13:29

Yeah.

Emily: 00:13:30

But we're also in the, like, trying to just launch myself into everything.

Kat: 00:13:33

Yeah.

Emily: 00:13:34

Trying to kill myself era.

Kat: 00:13:35

It's very alarming, but it also feels good, right? Like, to kind of, like, flex that part of your brain. I think at one point, at least for me, I was like, "is this over? Is, like, business owner slash, like, person who can just, in my mind, do anything. Like, figure it out and do anything. Is..Is that person over?" Because I'm putting all of my do anything power into protecting and caring for a child.

Yeah.

Because in the beginning, I think what's so exhausting is that, like, all of a sudden, everything everyone says your life is different, but, like, literally the air you breathe is not the same. You know? Like, you're just, like, all sudden. You know, you can't even eat the same way as you used to, and you can't sit down.

You have, like, zero mental space for yourself. It's so exhausting in that way. And I'm really looking forward to it not being nearly as exhausting that way since I've done it before.

But it is something that you just can't prepare, prepare for no matter how many reels you watch.

Emily: 00:14:42

Yeah, so true. Do you have a lot of, like, overstimulation right now in the toddler era?

Kat: 00:14:48

She's so chill. I will say. Girl's got lungs, though. When she does decide to do it, she can really scream.

I was joking with her pediatrician that I think she will have a future as a horror film actress. She's got the perfect high pitch scream. I used to, like, hear a ringing in my ears, but now I think I might have lost some of that.

Emily: 00:15:17

She the next, like, Jamie Lee Curtis.

Kat: 00:15:19

Oh my God. I wish. That would be so sick. I love.

Emily: 00:15:22

That would be really cool. Yeah, no, I have a very loud little dude too, so I'm very used to the overstimulation of the sounds.

Kat: 00:15:30

But I mean, in general, she's like, you know, we just went to Lucky's for dinner and like, this happens all the time. The table next to us was like, "your daughter is so, like, she's so good." She didn't know how to peep out of her. I mean, she is.

She's pretty quiet until she like screams once in a while.

Emily: 00:15:50

Yeah, I guess I don't have a lot of other babies to compare mine to because, like, he'll be eating and when he's happy and eating, he's just like, ah, yeah, you know, really chatty guy so far at least.

Kat: 00:16:01

Yeah, she sings a lot.

Emily: 00:16:03

That's so cute.

Kat: 00:16:04

It's awesome. Both me and my husband are, are musical. My husband's in a band and I actually have a degree in music.

It's really cool to see that she's so musical and like, it seems really innate, you know. But she can sing at least four songs. Like she doesn't know the words.

But she's, you know, she's like, twinkle, Twinkle Little Star, Wheels on the Bus, Frere Jacques, man. What's the other one? But she sings them like very distinctly. I'm just like that, that to me, blows me away. I'm like, that's cooler than talking.

I told the pediatrician about it. I was like, "this is cooler than talking, right? She's fine."

Emily: 00:16:45

We kept wondering if he'll be like a drummer when he grows up or something. Because he loves, like banging on things. He's got like a real good sense of rhythm.

Kat: 00:16:52

Yeah. Well, they can start a band together.

Emily: 00:16:54

Yeah, that'd be so cute. Little neighborhood kids band.

Kat: 00:16:56

I love it.

Emily: 00:16:57

Do you think your relationship with Sylvie will change once the second one comes along?

Kat: 00:17:02

Oh, gosh, of course. Yeah, of course. I really wanted to have a second kid for Sylvie, like for my first child, you know, so that they, she would have a sibling.

I really thought of it, like when we get old and die. She will still have a family member, you know, like, she has a cousin.

But I do think there's, like, a lot of people that I know who are our age or older that have one kid. And I'm not trying to say, like, one way is better than the other. I definitely think our lives would be easier if we only had one kid.

We would have a little bit more money if we only had one kid. I totally get that, but I just felt like it. I, like, needed her to have a sibling, so. Yeah. Will my relationship change with Sylvie? Yeah, well, of course. Clayton really, when we found out we were pregnant, I think he really mourned the idea of her just, like, having all of our love and attention, like, exclusively, I think TBD on how that really feels later, because we just can't. This is definitely a question, like, I don't really know, but I'm expecting that our hearts grow, and we have the same love that we have for Sylvie.

And, you know, maybe we don't have quite the same attention span, at least in the early days, but I'm hoping over time, it all just kind of blends into, like, it just is like, we are one family unit, you know what I mean? It's not just, like, it's not like, all hyper, laser focused on one kid. It's like, both kids and, and my husband and me and all of us.

Emily: 00:18:47

When you were deciding to have a second, did you ever worry that you wouldn't love the second one as much because Sylvie's so great? Like, I worry about that sometimes if we have a second.

Kat: 00:18:55

Mm, yeah. No, but I, I think...Okay, not to flip it on you, but, like, did you feel, like, the intense, like, love and, like, all these crazy feelings, like, the moment they put your son in your arms?

Emily: 00:19:12

No!

Kat: 00:19:13

Same. And, like, so, and then you find out that, like, that's kind of normal what they..But everything everyone tells you is that, like, the moment you see your child, you're gonna be, like, flooded with, like, crazy love for them.

Emily: 00:19:25

And I was just in total shock.

Kat: 00:19:27

I was in shock.

Emily: 00:19:28

Yeah. Teeth chattering and just saying, like, "what the fuck" over and over.

Kat: 00:19:33

Girl, same.

Emily: 00:19:33

Yeah. Like, it's a gnarly experience.

Kat: 00:19:36

It really is. So, you know, I kind of expect it to be like that for a minute, and then once she starts to show me a little bit of her personality, of course I'm gonna find that I love her just as much as I love Sylvie.

Emily: 00:19:49

Do you feel like you bonded with Sylvie a lot, like, during pregnancy and with this second one? Or is it kind of like, I have no idea what's going on?

Kat: 00:19:56

Am I a terrible mom? Like, not really. Like I'm saying, I know, like, I want to be like this trad wife for this podcast and be like, "woo. Like, yes. Like, we talk."

But like, no. You know, I think what is fun, though, is so my job is, like, so physically involved. It is kind of fun to be like, you know, if I'm getting in some weird, crazy crouched position or whatever, she's having to figure that out too. And it's definitely not the same. Once they're on the outside, I'm like, somehow I'm like, tie you up over here. Don't get in, don't get in any of this kombucha or, like, cleaning chemicals or something. Yeah, she doesn't really come with me actually, at all because it's too crazy.

Emily: 00:20:40

Yeah, no, I felt like I had no idea what's going on in there. And I had an anterior placenta, so I, like, didn't feel kicks or anything, like, hardly at all. And he was so early, so.

Yeah, I didn't really knew him at all. He was a month early.

Kat: 00:20:53

Okay.

Emily: 00:20:54

Yeah.

Kat: 00:20:54

Yeah. So it's like, I was like, who.

Emily: 00:20:56

Is this in my arms? Anything about him, really.

Kat: 00:21:01

Do you have a lot of little kids in your family?

Emily: 00:21:03

No, not really.

Kat: 00:21:04

Yeah, same. And, and like, Clayton, he comes from a huge family, my husband. And so he's been around, like, little kids. Yeah, always. So I feel, like, very lucky that he was just, like, totally knew, like, what to do. I was also just so swollen, I could barely hold her. It was crazy. So I'm hoping this time around a little bit different.

Emily: 00:21:26

What are you expecting will be, like, really joyful and fun about the two under two era?

Kat: 00:21:30

Mmm. I'm just really hoping that Sylvie loves her little sister. You know, I, I'm not having, I'm not trying to put any expectations on her to, like, immediately, like, love her little sister. I, like I said, I think she'll probably be kind of jealous, but I'm hoping, you know, after a little bit, she really.

Because she loves, like, little stuffed animals and dolls and. And snuggling them. And she even has. I got her a baby doll for, I think, Easter. It was so to prepare her so when we have our baby, she can have her baby. And sometimes she feeds the baby doll with the little bottle and it's very cute.

So I guess joyful moments, like, would for us or for me would be that Sylvie really, like, connects with her.

I think that would take a lot of pressure and it would feel like I don't really have much to compare it to, but it's kind of like, I guess for people who might have, like, two dogs and like, one dog can't hang with the other dog versus, like, they're best friends. I don't know how people do the whole separate. And I don't want my kids to feel like it's this competition between the two of them.

You know, I'm almost hoping that they're close enough in age that they'll feel, like, really connected, but I'm sure that that can backfire as well.

Emily: 00:22:53

I feel like I see the funniest videos where it's like 5% of the time it's like the cutest, sweetest, snuggles between the older one and the little one and the other. 95% of the time it's like aggressive chaos, like rocking them in their bouncer and like, "HI BABY!"

Maybe you'll have some of that, like, chaotic fun affection too.

Kat: 00:23:12

I'm assuming so.

And I'm also assuming that, like, this new baby will probably, like, grow up a little faster than Sylvie too, just because she has Sylvie to look up to and to show her how to. To do everything. So I guess I'll be...I don't know if that'll be, like, a joyful thing, but it's definitely something I'm going to keep my eye on of like, okay. "is she progressing faster than Sylvie did?" Because she has this role model right in front of her.

Emily: 00:23:43

It'll be fun to see it all unfold.

Kat: 00:23:45

I think so.

Emily: 00:23:46

Well, let's take a little break and then we'll keep going with our next set of questions.

Kat: 00:23:51

Sounds good.

Emily: 00:24:58

So, Kat, I want to hear all about your business, baby. Katboocha. How did that come to be back in the day?

Kat: 00:25:06

The real answer is kind of like by accident, I suppose. I got into kombucha making. So my business, Kombucha. We make kombucha. The name comes from early days Instagram just like hashtagging it.

And then I was only like 26 when it got started. So when I named it or like made, you know, the Instagram for it. And first I went, I got like a DBA for it. I don't, I didn't know what I was doing.

You know, I just named it that. And then it took off and I would maybe like a nugget of advice for anyone else, like, maybe don't name the business, like a play on your own name. It just feels weird as you get older. But I can't change it now. And honestly, it's good.

And okay, maybe people are being nice, but they, they tell me, they're like, "oh, it's good because you get it kind of mixed up with the word kombucha and Katboocha." And so I don't know as far as like, how did it get started?

I was, I just was kind of into home brewing it and I had like the right amount of being young and thinking, like, "why, why wouldn't it be me to do something like this or to get it started?" And. And I just didn't give up on it, I guess. Like, I just kind of kept going with it. You know, I made the business plan.

I was reaching out to places about where I could make it. Since, you know, it is a food, you have to like, have a space. And once you kind of do one hurdle, it opens up more questions and more doors.

And so then you start doing the next hurdles. And then that's kind of how it became a business was sort of just by accident, just by trying.

Emily: 00:26:55

And.

Kat: 00:26:55

And then you become more and more legit. And here we are. It's been, oh my goodness, like eight years.

Emily: 00:27:04

Wow, that's a long haul. Gotta have a big party at 10!

Kat: 00:27:08

I know, I'm like exhausted already thinking about, like, how am I gonna put that together?

Emily: 00:27:13

It'll be have like a two year old and almost. Yeah, by then you'll be fine.

Kat: 00:27:17

It'll be totally fine by then.

Emily: 00:27:19

Yeah, totally chill life. Yeah.

Kat: 00:27:20

Yes, exactly.

Emily: 00:27:21

They'll be behind the tap, pourin'.

Kat: 00:27:23

Yeah!

Emily: 00:27:25

I've always been like so scared of the idea of starting a brick and mortar. Was that like, scary for you to get a physical location?

Kat: 00:27:33

No, only because I had to. Like when you're making a food item, you like, have to do it in a commercial kitchen. There's some caveats.

Like if you're selling at a farmer's market or something, you can do what's called cottage law. And that really is only for certain types of foods too. It's not like everything can be made at home.

For us, it felt there was just really no way to do it other than getting a real a place to do it. Now you may be referencing, like my actual storefront that I have today. That came a few years after starting Katboocha.

My initial location was across the street in a brewery and I just kind of rented space in like an extra part of their warehouse that they did use, but just not for really production, more like storage and some light cleaning. And that kind of thing.

So I was there for about three years and then, you know, the owner of the brewery who was so awesome and helpful, Rohrbach Brewery, John Urlaub, who's so helpful, he, around the three year mark was like, "all right, you know, I think, you know," he wasn't kicking me out by any means, but I think he was feeling like, "yeah, you're doing good, you know, maybe you should try and expand and grow this" And, and I was feeling the same way. You know, I literally had the. My space was not that much bigger than the room we're in right now.

And I was making it work, but there was just no way that it could keep going that way.

Emily: 00:29:03

When did you start to take on employees? Was that while you were still in that old brewing space?

Kat: 00:29:07

Yes. Yeah, I had one employee at that time and maybe like a year in.

So not, not that, but it was only a part time person just to help with mainly bottling at that time I was doing glass bottles all by hand. We could do like two at a time off of this bottling machine. But like we had to label them all, sanitize them all, fill them all, cap them all.

And then, which just was a lot.

And then doing some of the markets and stuff like that, just having a second hand because especially when you're the business owner, people want to talk to you and there's other people that are like right behind them that want to buy something. It's always like nice to like have somebody else to if you're like having a conversation. Because that's how a lot of things get...how a lot of connections get made is like we're just at the market talking or we're at an event talking. And it's like you also need somebody there to do the real job too.

Emily: 00:30:09

I'm glad you got help somewhat early on then.

Kat: 00:30:12

Yeah, I had a great. My first employee, Holland. They're so awesome. They, I think went off, got married, moved back to Michigan where they're from, and I think they are a librarian now.

Emily: 00:30:25

Wow.

Kat: 00:30:25

Which is my second employee to go off and become a librarian.

Emily: 00:30:29

Well, that's pretty cool. Fun little connection!

Kat: 00:30:31

Yeah. So now we have three employees and a couple like auxiliary people like to call in when we need help, which is actually the lowest amount I've had in a little while. But it seems to work with everyone's like availability and scheduling.

And it works for me too, to not have to like throw in like one extra person to do like one shift a week or something like that.

Emily: 00:30:55

That makes sense you mentioned there have been like, a lot of hurdles along the way and things you've had to figure out. what are some of the most challenging parts or what were those hurdles?

Kat: 00:31:03

Like, when we started, nobody was making kombucha, like, almost in the entire state. I mean, you could count probably on one hand, like, or half of one hand how many people were making kombucha in the state.

So the biggest hurdle was like, you know, what do we need, like regulation wise to make this product and sell it?

And you know, for me, in the beginning, I'm just like this person that knows how to make kombucha and I don't really know anything about, like, food safety. Like, to be honest, I'm not trying to, like, expose myself. Like, I definitely do now, don't get me wrong.

But like, I didn't realize, you know, certain things and some of the hurdles were not only like, educating myself, but also kind of like educating the state on what is okay and not for kombucha. I think the state would be really happy if everyone pasteurized their product.

And because there are live cultures in kombucha that actually add to the benefit of kombucha. They're. They're not a bad thing.

Just like there's live cultures in like honey, for instance, you know, it does kind of add this, like, variable into things and it, it makes any sort of regulating body, like the state, like, a little bit nervous. There are regulations, though, for kombucha.

And so you just have to like, remind them that "this is what the great state of New York has put out in front of us." And, you know, all of our inspectors have been really, really wonderful that way in general.

But it is kind of funny when you're like meeting your inspector for the first time and you've just started a business and you're like, educating them on like, how to. It's not like going into a cidery or brewery or even like, you know, a sauce making facility where like, these things are like, highly done all the time. But, you know, my first inspection was like two hours long because I had to like, show her.

Emily: 00:33:09

Wow.

Kat: 00:33:09

Meanwhile, they really should just be looking for like, mouse poops. And like, if I have the right amount of sinks and.

Emily: 00:33:14

Yeah, right.

Kat: 00:33:15

That my ph meter works. So. So that, that's probably like, I would say in the beginning was like, the biggest hurdle was like, okay, are they going to shut me down or are they going to take this $175 and give me that piece of paper that says I'm good to sell?

Emily: 00:33:32

You know, like, that's such a fascinating process. I've wanted for awhile, since New York State legalized human composting, I thought it would be amazing to bring that to Rochester. That scares the shit out of me to do that.

Kat: 00:33:44

And I like dead bodies.

Emily: 00:33:46

Yeah.

Kat: 00:33:46

Wow.

Emily: 00:33:47

Totally different than social media. But I think that...

Kat: 00:33:51

hey, maybe there could be like a cross collab with our businesses! I don't know.

Emily: 00:33:53

Right. Like you mentioned the live stuff and kombucha. They like, compost the bodies with live microorganisms.

Kat: 00:34:00

So this is terrible because I feel like this is going to get pulled as some sort of clip of me.

Emily: 00:34:05

being like, dead parties at the kombucha place.

Kat: 00:34:08

I know I've always joked like, "oh, I know where to hide one" you know.

Emily: 00:34:11

but like, New York State hasn't developed the regulations yet. And it's the kind of thing that I'm like, I don't know how any of this works. Like, I'm not gonna become a lobbyist.

I'm just gonna give up and wait for someone else to do it. So it's really impressive that you were, like, persistent and educated.

Kat: 00:34:26

I've actually gone on Capitol Hill and lobbied.

Emily: 00:34:28

That's amazing. Wow.

Kat: 00:34:30

Yeah, it didn't really work out, but, I mean, I wasn't the spearhead person either. But I did represent, you know, like, our part of New York. And Joe Morelle sent me a letter and stuff. You know, he's supportive of our bill.

Emily: 00:34:44

what was the bill about?

Kat: 00:34:47

I'm glad you asked! Is basically it's, it's tax law. It's to carve out kombucha from excise taxes from alcohol, which would allow kombucha to be...kombucha legally has to be under 0.5 alcohol to be considered non alcoholic. But it...this bill would allow kombucha to be, I think, under 1.25% alcohol and not be subject to alcohol excise taxes.

The whole pitch behind it is basically that when the 0.5% alcohol number came about, it's like completely arbitrary. Nobody ever thought that a drink like kombucha would be like this situation.

er. We tried, but it was like: 2016

Emily: 00:36:07

Feels like so long ago too.

Kat: 00:36:09

I know.

Emily: 00:36:10

So weird.

Kat: 00:36:12

Well, we don't have to go there. But...

Emily: 00:36:17

I'm curious what it was like taking maternity leave, running a business like Katboocha when you had Sylvie.

Kat: 00:36:23

Well, I was really lucky that Sylvie was born sort of like right before Thanksgiving, which actually is kind of a busy time. Between Thanksgiving and Christmas. It worked out. You know, my employees knew what was happening and everything was kind of like set.

And then after Christmas, it's very chill time. January, February are our slowest months. It's most people's slowest months. So as I was starting to return to work, it felt kind of natural.

But I did go into work, like, literally like five days after coming home from the hospital.

Emily: 00:37:00

Was there some issue you had to go resolve?

Kat: 00:37:02

Yes. We had like, this, like a wild yeast actually was infecting some of our tanks. Of course. It's like literally the perfect timing of something. Talk about a hurdle that I didn't know how to handle! You know, you think you're doing everything right.

I'm using, like, literally all of, you know, everything that I thought was like, good enough for cleaning, for brewing stuff. And we took everything apart. I'm like, literally, like with a toothbrush, getting into, you know, so we've cleaned everything up.

It didn't end up working. And then I ended up going back into the hospital for my preeclampsia. I know it was very stressful, actually.

I'm really, like, looking forward to that not being the case this time. In the end, we figured out that there's actually, like a next level up of cleaning chemicals. That's been game changer for us.

We've changed a lot in how I think we're the cleanest--forget kombucha!--but, like, I feel like we have to be the cleanest, like, brewery anyone's ever been into.

Emily: 00:38:09

Wow, that's awesome.

Kat: 00:38:10

It's crazy. I'm like. We're like. I'm so meticulous about it because it's. It is microbial. So if you don't do it right, like, we will find out.

But you might not see it before. Like, before it's before you start brewing, you know, because it's microbial. Like, everything looks spotless, but once things start fermenting, you know, commingling, you're like, "wait, something's not right here."

Emily: 00:38:37

Wow.

Kat: 00:38:37

I did a lot of reaching out to other...I didn't really plan on talking about this because I feel like it's like one of those things too, where people might be like, "oh, like something's wrong at Katboocha" or whatever.

Emily: 00:38:47

We can cut it if we need to.

Kat: 00:38:48

It's fine. I just...It is something that happened. I think it happens in a lot of places, too. Like, that you get, like, a...Like, wild yeast exists. and I'm pretty confident ours came from using real maple syrup. So I don't feel like that...that's a good thing. Bad about, like, why it happened. It just sucked because the answer took a lot of figuring out, and there's like, no one. Like, that could be, like, "that's 100% What's going on here. And let me show you how to fix it."

Emily: 00:39:19

Yeah. I was gonna ask if you had, like, kombucha mentors or if you were scouring the internet or, like, yeah, Reddit rabbit hole.

Kat: 00:39:26

Yeah. I took samples to Cornell.

Emily: 00:39:28

Wow.

Kat: 00:39:29

They were just like, "yeah, just make sure you clean everything really good." I was like, "cool. Thanks, guys."

Emily: 00:39:35

Sheesh.

Kat: 00:39:35

It was a lot to deal with. Yeah.

Emily: 00:39:37

Five days postpartum.

Kat: 00:39:38

Yeah. The people that helped me out the most were the folks at Ultimate Brew Services, which is like, a company here in Rochester that help basically, like, if you're starting a brewery and you have the cheddar, you hire those guys to come set it up for you. When I told them what was going on, they, they weren't like, "oh, this is exactly what's wrong." But they were like, "use this. and this concentrate. It'll annihilate everything." It was, like, great, you know, awesome. And so, you know, and, and they're kind of like, they've been great ever since. I text them all the time.

I'm like, "well, what do you think about if I do it this way or that way?" Or, like, you know, I'm still. I feel like I, to this day, I'm still learning about some of the best practices and stuff. Even though they gave me all the manuals and I'm doing everything by the manual, but I'm like. Then they tell me something over text. I'm like, "oh, okay. Well, I wasn't doing it that way."

Emily: 00:40:29

There's a lot to it all, I'm sure.

Kat: 00:40:31

Yeah. So I still, you know, it's fun, like, kind of how I was saying earlier, like, with how you're, like, trying to take on all these things, like, you're starting this podcast and. And you're kind of, like, blowing up your work life a little bit.

Like, it's like, isn't it kind of great, though, that we're flexing that part of our brain? As much as I've had, like, moments of like, wow, somewhere I up. It's also, like, really gratifying to like, figure it out still and kind of feel like I've, like, unlocked a new level of. And now I can really feel super confident.

Like, sometimes I'll see like, reels and stuff of other kombucha places, not necessarily in Rochester mostly. Like, I'm like, seeing these ones in like California or somewhere else. And I'm like, "there's no way they're cleaning that." Like the way that they should be like this because people make fermenters out of other things. And I'm just like, there's just no way. But that's just my own.

Emily: 00:41:26

Like, totally. Yeah.

Kat: 00:41:27

That. Because I've been. I'm like, so in it.

Emily: 00:41:29

Mm.

Kat: 00:41:29

But yeah, I'm definitely sweating talking about this.

Emily: 00:41:32

Was the rest of your maternity leave a little more restful after that, or did you have to keep coming in periodically?

Kat: 00:41:39

I'm gonna be real. I didn't like, I wasn't like, just not showing up for weeks on end.

I was always there, like one day a week afterwards, even if it was just for like an hour or two just to get in, see what needed to be ordered or do payroll or. I have a full time employee who's amazing and she keeps a lot of stuff rolling for me. But, like, she's not me either. You know what I mean?

And she doesn't. She can see the big picture, but she's also doing all the small picture stuff. So it's a lot to put on somebody to be like, all right, also handle what's to come. So likely same with this next baby is that I brought Sylvie with me. She was like asleep in the carseat.

And there's a couple days a week that we're closed. So it's like, you know, that's what we'll do is we'll come in on those days probably and just make sure things get done and kind of keep moving.

This next baby is going to be born mid summer, which secretly is also kind of a slow time of year. This, like mid July through mid August is when everyone takes vacations before school starts again.

But it's definitely more like the season, you know what I mean? Like, it's more the market season and that kind of thing. It'll definitely feel a little different this time.

Emily: 00:43:01

Yeah, I'm sure I try to do as much as possible before I was out on my maternity leave, which is so much easier with, like a service based business. But I think you probably have much more that comes up day to day that you couldn't, like, plan for proactively. Right?

Kat: 00:43:16

There's also, like, slight variabilities in fermentation as well. So it's like you can kind of say, like, "okay, yeah, for sure, on this date, we'll have this ready." But it's like, well, what if it's not exactly.

I wrestle with that. Like, do I pull a ferment a little bit early, even though it should be ready, just because that's, like, the scheduling of it, or do I let it go like, 24 more hours and it's, like, a little bit more, like, what I want? It's definitely a lot easier to do that second route. The route that I prefer to do when I'm not pregnant, I'm not just having a baby.

It's also me being, like, a perfectionist or attempting to make sure that, like, it's always reliable,

Emily: 00:44:03

which is probably a big part of why you're so good at what you do.

Kat: 00:44:05

I don't know. I'm not. I don't know. Thank you. I don't know how to take a compliment, I guess.

Emily: 00:44:10

But I was also gonna say, what was it like going back to work? But it sounds like you weren't away all that much since you were checking in pretty early.

Kat: 00:44:17

I was literally, like, emailing people in the hospital.

Emily: 00:44:20

I was, too! It's like, "hi, baby is here early. I can't."

Kat: 00:44:24

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. For your situation, you. How do you prepare for that? No, I went back kind of immediately, but just definitely not at, like, the pace, you know?

But I had my hand in it, so still right away.

Emily: 00:44:38

And even though they won't remember it, how cool that your little girls got to be there, like, watching their mom do this from such a tiny, tiny age.

Kat: 00:44:45

I hope that they'll feel, like, inspired by that and not, like, resentful of that. My parents were always at work. It felt like when I was growing up and I kind of talked to you about this, like, off mic, but, like, they're physicians. And I think a big part of why my sister and I decided not to do, like, medical school was because we didn't want that, like, lifestyle for our families. Well, now, I mean, surprise, surprise. Work is, like, constant, right? Like, no matter what you're doing, crazy.

And, yeah, I definitely didn't choose the easier route, but maybe I felt like it was the more me or more fulfilling route. It, like I said, it's kind of, like, was an accident, and now I'm just in it and I can't stop. I don't know.

Emily: 00:45:38

I was going to ask how your relationship with work changed after having Sylvie, or is it kind of the same as it was?

Kat: 00:45:46

I don't know. I think sometimes I have a bit more of a tendency to expect things to be done very consistently and very...like, maybe my expectations are a little bit higher now that I'm a parent. And I think that mainly comes from, like, the lack of time that I have available for work.

So it's like, I don't want to be wasting time with mistakes or with, you know, so. But the thing is, is you can't just expect perfection every time. And I'm not perfect every time.

And stuff happens maybe that I definitely have been feeling as this pregnancy has gone on. I've definitely been feeling like I'm just wanting to be at work constantly and getting a lot done.

I joked with my employee, like, I'm like, I'm nesting. But, like, only at work.

Like, I'm like, you know, I'm about to get four new tanks delivered next week that are going to be like, I don't know, each one, each one of the new tanks is like three of my current tanks, volume wise. So I'm like, setting up.

Emily: 00:46:59

I feel like I did that too.

Like, I got my whole syllabus ready for the fall semester in May, like, two weeks after classes ended, because I knew the baby was coming soon and couldn't do a lot of nesting.

Kat: 00:47:09

Were you happy about that, though? Like, were you happy that you did that for yourself?

Emily: 00:47:12

Yeah, I think it helped a lot, especially with him being so early, right? And then, like, I was going to schedule content for two of my clients two months in advance, and I got through one month of it, and then the baby came.

So I was like, "well, I'm glad I got half of it done." Like, I thought I'd have more time.

Kat: 00:47:25

But with Sylvie, she went long. I was like, I was eager. I was like, "let's go. I want to meet this kid." You know, like, what's but 10 days or so afterwards?

Emily: 00:47:35

But everyone was like, "oh, it's your first. You're gonna go so long." And my water broke at 36 weeks. And I was like, "ehhh, guys?"

Kat: 00:47:40

yeah, I know. I keep, like, worrying that's gonna happen for me this time because I'm doing a scheduled C section this time.

I'm not sure if I said this earlier, but Sylvie was a C section. And so we're just doing a scheduled this time. I took my, my minute to think about it.

I mean, I really only decided A few weeks ago that that's what we were going to do. And I'm. I'm very happy about the decision. I feel really, really good about it, actually. I mean, this baby could decide to come at any point.

At this point.

Emily: 00:48:11

Got a mind of their own, babies!

Kat: 00:48:14

On the body too. I think it's like my body that didn't get there. And I feel like Sylvie too. Like, she was fine all 36 hours of Pitocin. Okay. She was chilling. Yeah.

Like, I'm just like, "girl, can you descend?" But no.

Emily: 00:48:30

Yeah, it was weird for me because my water broke and then like, nothing happened. So they had to induce me because they're like, "we gotta get him out of there. You're gonna get like some kind of infection if your waters are just broken." And he's chillin.

Kat: 00:48:40

Oh, my God.

Emily: 00:48:42

And then he came out after like 20 minutes of pushing. So he was ready. He was like, "I'm yeeting myself out of the womb. I do not want to be in there."

Kat: 00:48:49

Wow, that's amazing. Yeah.

Emily: 00:48:51

Crazy.

Kat: 00:48:52

For me, the second time around, I was really kind of like feeling like, "okay, I want to do the natural birth." There's something about having a C section, and I know that other C section moms are going to be listening to this and think...I just think it's like, taboo to talk about, but, like, whatever, I'm gonna say it. It's like, I think you feel as a C section mom, like, that you didn't really, like, "give birth" quote, unquote. Like, you didn't push a baby out.

Even though, like, everyone says, like, oh, yeah, Like, I mean, I did give birth, but at the same time, like, I didn't push the baby out, you know? And I think there's like this hang up in my mind of like, yeah, I know this is my last baby. So I'm like this, you know, I have to have like, that experience. Otherwise, like, it's like, that's freaking imposter syndrome again. Yeah, but like, for birth and for motherhood.

Emily: 00:49:42

and you're an amazing mom and you brought this person from, like, another dimension into the world.

Kat: 00:49:48

Like, it doesn't matter what the expectations we put on ourselves, you know? And once I, like, let go of the idea of, like, needing that, I'm so much more free. Like, I feel so much freer about the whole thing.

And for me, like, the. The decision is entirely so I don't have an induction again and I don't get preeclampsia again.

No one can tell me for sure that my preeclampsia came from my induction, but no one can tell me it didn't. Yeah, you know, I have amazing blood pressure always, like with Sylvie, as a person that was never pregnant, as a person that's pregnant right now, like, if I get preeclampsia again, well, fuck me, you know, I guess it wasn't. I guess it wasn't the induction.

Emily: 00:50:35

I feel like our society hypes natural birth so much right now and it's probably part of the whole like alt right trad wife stuff that's been on the rise so much. But...

Kat: 00:50:44

I'm so annoyed by that.

Emily: 00:50:46

Okay, have an epidural or not, like, it doesn't matter. Like, you brought a human into the world.

Kat: 00:50:50

I am a white girl that has a kombucha business and likes making sourdough. Why did you have to, like...

Emily: 00:50:55

red flag, red flag!

Kat: 00:50:59

No, come on. I mean, like, I always also voted for Bernie and Jill Stein. Don't come for me for that. But whatever. I just like, I hate that. I hate that.

That's like co opted, you know, all.

Emily: 00:51:11

The wellness grifting going on.

Kat: 00:51:13

That's, I will say not to be like too controversial and like slightly bring it back to the business end of things. Like, oh yeah, we get all sorts of customers and everyone's, you know, everyone for the most part is great.

I will say, like, no matter what side of the political spectrum you are on or what side of like the health spectrum you're on, most people are like really like genuinely wonderful people. I've made a lot of really good friends with my customers and they run the gamut.

As far as like some people are in it for the gut health, some people are in it for like some other sort of like alternative wellness health sort of things.

Obviously more lately people are in it for the non alcoholic trends, which is very cool that I feel like I went from like one niche of being like in the wellness sphere and just totally sliding into this other developing niche of like non alcoholic drinks completely, like not of my design. It just happened that way. So I got lucky that way.

Emily: 00:52:21

I'm curious what you think the future holds for your business with all the wonderful people you've met and you've grown so much. What's ahead?

Kat: 00:52:29

It's hard to say. I really do feel like we have a great business, we have a great product. I really enjoy what I do.

I am actively trying to grow it in ways that I feel like...the dead bodies? I'm not trying to grow any kombucha out of your dead clients. But thank you for asking. We can talk about it later. Off mic for sure.

No, I'm just joking, but no. Yes, exactly. I actually I, I'm a big true crime girly. So we, we could talk. But as far as like where it's going, my aspirations are...

Let me just start there. I want to own my building or I want to buy a building. I'm just going to lay my cards out there on the mic for everyone to hear.

We have been looking, no news to break or anything like that. But like, that's definitely where things are headed.

And I guess if I can't own a building or I can't own my building sometime within the next like five years, I really don't know. You know, it just is not sustainable to continue the way we're continuing as renters.

That's kind of like the big cloud over me, which can sort of part ways and be a big sunshine thing or it may stifle me and we won't go on. It's just kind of the way it is, you know, you just can't do it. You just can't rent and keep getting confined by that forever.

Guess that's like the big thing that I'm looking forward to is hopefully finding either that I can buy my building that I'm in now, which would be awesome, or find a new home for Katboocha that we would own.

And then once we can secure like the building, I think sky's the limit as far as like production and really maybe even moving into not just kombucha, but like other beverages too. Although I'm gonna say right now we can revisit this in five years, but I don't think I'd ever do anything alcoholic. I thought about it so much.

Emily: 00:54:39

Yeah. What kind of other beverages were you thinking?

Kat: 00:54:41

I don't know.

Emily: 00:54:42

I mean like the prebiotic sodas are big. Would that be like something like that?

Kat: 00:54:44

Or I'd even like do it for another company that had like a recipe that they wanted or something. You know, like if we had like the space and the facilities, like it opens up that kind of revenue stream as well. Being what we call a co-packer at the moment.

Yeah, I mean, I'm for sure we're just focusing on our own product and maybe making that next step as being like building owners. I've been trying to do a couple of things to help with that, like becoming like certified woman-owned business, that sort of thing.

Emily: 00:55:15

I believe in you. I think you can do it!

Kat: 00:55:17

I think so.

Emily: 00:55:17

I'm excited.

Kat: 00:55:18

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm prepared to, like, have this, like, mental step backwards as soon as the new baby comes, but I think it's going to always feel, like, really encouraging during that time that I got to, like, this mental step forward where I am, like, right now to be like, okay, that is still there. That's, like, still in you. And it's gonna come back around and, like, you will sleep one day. The hormones will even out.

Your hair will stop falling out. Like, it's all good.

Emily: 00:55:49

Well, I'm excited for you. I'm excited for baby number two to arrive. Thanks for coming on and sharing your story, Kat. I really appreciate it.

Kat: 00:55:55

Oh, I really appreciate you asking me. I'm excited. Excited to chat.

Narrator: 00:56:02

This has been a presentation of the Lunchadore podcast network.